Hardeep Matharu 
Welcome to A Better World of Work podcast by Veldhoen + Company. My name is Hardeep. We also have with us Eoin from Veldhoen + Company. 

Eoin Higgins 
Hey, everyone. 

Hardeep Matharu 
Today we've got a very special guest, Marie-Laure Caille, and today's topic is on leadership in hybrid working. Marie-Laure is the founder and director of The Human Factor, which is an organisation that focuses on supporting leadership development. She has a lot of experience in this space over the years. Perhaps without going further ahead. I will invite Marie-Laure to tell us a little bit about yourself and The Human Factor.

Marie-Laure Caille
Hello, it's nice to be with you and Eoin. Wonderful and thank you for the invitation. I started The Human Factor just five years ago and we actually celebrated the company's five year anniversary two weeks ago. That was quite a nice landmark. I started the human factor at a point in my life where I had already quite a lot of experience. I had been teaching at a university for 10-15 years, teaching at a business school for 10 years, had been facilitating workshops for executives in the region in Asia Pacific, I was in the middle of my certification as a coach. At that time, my son was two years old. It was a really good time for me from a personal and professional point of view. It felt like it was the right time, I also found that it was a natural progression for all the work that I had been doing before for over 20 years. The idea was really to offer services to individuals and organisations and to help individuals grow professionally, help them reach their potential in a way that is as human as possible. 

We work with individuals and we offer them coaching services, focusing on questions related to work and work only. Then we work with organisation to help them build this environment where people could thrive, where people could reach their potential through leadership development programmes, change management programmes and coaching services as well for executives. That's how it started and how it continues to go.

Hardeep Matharu 
Yes, thanks for sharing. For listeners out there., my introduction to Marie-Laure was when she helped me when I was going through a little bit of a looking for myself moment in my own career. She really helped me to redefine how I looked at where I could go from there. You asked a few questions which, to this day, I still remember. So clearly, the coaching worked very well for me so personally, I'm very happy that we've got you on for this today. 

So Marie-Laure, one thing that has been obviously a big topic for us is really about how our world of work is evolving. What I'm curious about from your side is the work that you do with your clients. Have you noticed that there's been a shift in the requirements or the issues that they are trying to solve as we've transitioned from our older, traditional ways of working to today's hybrid mix type of environment,

Marie-Laure Caille
There's been a big shift, obviously. There was a shift in in the initial phase of the pandemic where people were forced to work fully remotely and had to find new ways of working in a very short period of time. Now, the question is around hybrid work. I think it's a very special moment that is also a very wonderful opportunity, even though it's not easy, right? It encouraged and actually forces companies to redefine what it means to work. How are we going to work? How are we going to manage? How are we going to lead on a day-to-day basis? Those are not easy questions, and there are no easy straightforward answers. I think it's an opportunity because, you know, I've worked in the past with teams, and they've never really stopped and thought, okay, how do we actually want to communicate with one another? How do we want to collaborate? How do we want to work on specific project, and the type of leadership that we need, and we expect? So there were ways of working, and yet, they were implicit. They often were not really chosen. As a coach, the first thing we do with our clients is to co-design an agreement. We ask questions on how we are going to communicate, what is it that we want to achieve and how we're going to relate. We co-design this agreement that guides the way we work together, and then we revisit the principles to see okay, is it really valid? Do we want to adjust it? What is it that we need now? 

I think we can apply this principle to other areas of our lives, including with our team, with our colleagues, even in our marriage or in our relationship with partners. I think that's a very healthy way to communicate, to work and to be together. So, for me, that's a fantastic opportunity to look at those questions, look at questions of the type of work that we do, is i in the office, is it remotely? How do we communicate? How do we engage people? So lots of challenges, lots of interesting questions as well and a great opportunity.

Hardeep Matharu 
I definitely agree, and can echo a lot of what you've mentioned. The dialogue aspect and bringing up topics which you've sort of alluded to are very transparent. They're just the way we work, just how we do things. Bringing those up and calling attention to them is sometimes incredibly powerful. I think one thing you mentioned there as well, which I think is quite meaningful to me is this point about what we're looking for with our leaders. You know, when you think about that, how do you perceive a leader's role or how their contribution need to be now? What is needed of a leader in today's environment that may have shifted, perhaps from a few years ago?

Marie-Laure Caille
There is a shift, definitely, in what's needed. I think it's driven from lots of different reasons. First, there is a change in the expectations that employees have from work in general. I'm talking here about people who have the possibility to work remotely because a huge part of the population doesn't have this flexibility. 

We need to be really mindful of that, people who work in schools, people who work in as medical workers, people who work in the police force. You have a big portion of the workforce who doesn't have this option. For people who do, they want more flexibility, they want more autonomy. There's this push from employees that really want to experience that and benefit from that. I think that's a great push. On the other hand, for leaders, you've to take into account a lot more dimensions, in a way. Through the pandemic, yes, the team was out of sight so what does that mean to manage people you don't see on a daily basis? What does that mean to be more aware of people's personal life? We're taking calls from home! I think many of my clients have seen my son, and I've seen their family members, and we talk about them. There's a more human side to it as well. There's also new challenges that people have had to face and still are facing. 

Just last week, I was talking to a contact of mine, and all the members in her household had COVID. So suddenly, she was the caregiver to seven people. So as a leader, you have to account for that as well. It's not just the work as we used to experience work, it's a very different type of work. For leaders, it's a lot. It's a new set of challenges and it's a new way of approaching the role of a leader as well, I think.

Hardeep Matharu 
With that in mind, what shifts do you tend to find these leaders need to go for? I mean, of course, it sounds like that there's a lot of challenges, and lots of things have shifted around them. Where do you think if a leader takes a step back and says, you know what, I'm really struggling with this. I can't work effectively with my team. What would you say to that leader as a good place to either start from or to think about? Well, here, look, this is a base requirement, or this is something that you really need to think about as we've shifted.

Marie-Laure Caille
Yeah, I think it's really about redefining how someone will work mean. The team will work and someone will lead. The basis for me to really work as a team in this hybrid environment is to be willing to experiment and as a leader, to have the humility to say, hey, I don't have all the answers. It's not for me to define all the answers. So, leaders can lead an experiment with one's team to find out what is it that works for people and what is it that works also for the organisation because it goes both ways. 

We are at the beginning of the journey. There is no definite and final solution. It's really about looking at defining what we are looking for, looking at the other question that I mentioned earlier and say, okay, what are our answers as a team or as an organisation, to try and define new processes and do this intentionally. I think that to be very intentional about it is really critical; to define guidelines and to look at when do we work face to face? When do we work remotely? What kind of model of hybrid work do we choose? Because there's different ways, right? There's people split, there's time split, there's  remote first or office first. So what is it that we choose? Then test, collect information on what works, what doesn't work, revisit and adjust or change if that's needed. So it's really about having this humility to say we need to experiment, I don't know everything and to start with that. Also, to look at your role as a leader and not someone, as I said, who has all the answers, but someone who facilitates the process, someone who clears the way for other people to work, someone who supports, inspires and help people grow. I think that's the most important part of it.

Eoin Higgins 
I have a question, Marie-Laure, related to that. When you were speaking there about what leaders need or how we need to think differently, and how leaders do, I was reminded of - I can't remember the name of the report - one of the major Microsoft's annual report on workplace trends. They have the top line insights. One of them was this theme around employees wanting a greater level of flexibility in general than they had previously and  some senior executives are trying to get people back into the office. There's a bit of a disconnect between sets of expectations at one level of an organisation versus the other. It's the middle managers that will be, sort of caught in the middle of that. Two things occurred to me. One is that's nothing new, right? Middle managers have always been sandwiched in the middle of trying to manage up and manage down. 

I guess, in this more specific context around hybrid, working, do you see a different set of leadership practices needed, depending on whether or not you're an executive at an organisation or whether you're in that middle management, sort of layer. from a leadership perspective.

Marie-Laure Caille
Do I see what this need or this shift to be?

Eoin Higgins 
I guess what I'm trying to get a feel for what you see, in your experience, as do the senior leaders need a different set of practices or a slightly different set of practices versus the middle management or is it that the middle management leaders need more support? What do you think is is happening then?

Marie-Laure Caille
The focus is different in terms of what they do and what the day-to-day looks like, I think in terms of approach, I would say that they would need to, for this kind of environment - to have the same type of approach, one that's built on engaging more of your workers. Maybe senior leaders want people to be back in the office but the reality is that's not what people want. They don't want to be five days a week in the office. Also, it's been proven that people are more productive for certain types of work when they work remotely. It's about being willing to listen, to really look at the data and uncover if it makes sense for the companies. Not every work makes sense for individuals and companies. Again, you need to have clear guidelines around that. 

To go back to your question about middle manager and senior manager, I think, it's to have an approach that's winning is to be focused on experimentation, asking questions, being emotionally attuned to your team members and to your employees in general, connecting with them, listening to them, and demonstrating genuine empathy for one's team members. I don't think that's specific to middle manager or senior manager. I think it can apply, and it should apply to all managers and leaders. If you're a middle manager, if you're closer to your team members, develop trust, and build trust with your team members. Trust in their ability and their sense of responsibility to have this genuine connection with them. These develop your emotional empathy and emotional acuteness to your team. I think it's valid for all leaders.

Hardeep Matharu
I also have a related question. I think it's quite fundamental to the hybrid working experience - a lot of what you're sort of touching on there. One of the things that comes to mind and it's a topic that we look at quite closely in our work, is this element to build trust. Of course, I think many of us have the experience of how trust building has changed because we're not always in the same place as each other. We may sometimes be the screen, your camera might be on, it might be off. What are some things that you've tried to practice or you would suggest others practice in terms of building that level of trust. As you said, it's intentional. How can people be intentional about building trust?

Marie-Laure Caille
We have to think about those questions and for me, I start with showing my problems and vulnerability from time to time. I don't have, as I said, as a leader, I don't have all the answers, I'm not perfect, I struggle, and to share that. That's interesting because a few weeks ago, I was questioning if I should share with my team a struggle that I had a couple of months ago and I was hesitant about it. Interestingly, one of our clients shared that, and I was like, oh, that's actually quite powerful. After that, I shared it and Avantika, who works closely with me said you should have told me earlier, and I should. That was important, it impacted how we worked. So to show your human side, to share - it doesn't mean I'm going to share everything -  but to open up to struggles and to show the human side, I think that's important. That's one way. 

Also, I mentioned care earlier. So to be genuinely caring about your team members, and to show that you care. I mentioned earlier on having those check-in conversations, to start your meetings with, how are you doing, to just have a few minutes to make sure that people are okay. I think if you're genuine about it, people can feel it. This requires a level of authenticity in what I feel and what I say is aligned. This alignment is required for people to trust you, to trust in your message and then eventually to follow you as a leader.

Hardeep Matharu 
Yeah, it's interesting that you say that. I really do connect with it. I do experience that there are some people who find it difficult to truly bring their authentic self. As you've mentioned, it's about opening up on your shortcomings or things that might be holding you back or being high on your on your mind. For some leaders, it's quite hard for them to admit those things because as you've said, I'm the leader, I should have all the answers. 

One thing that I'm curious about when you work with clients of yours, how do you help them get past that? In some ways, this holds them back, even though it might be a comfort blanket to feel that they've got the right answer. Let's say, somebody today, a listener is going, hey, you know, what, that holds me back? What is something that you would suggest to start with, something to think about?

Marie-Laure Caille
Ask questions with your team. That's what we do as coaches all the time. Our job is to ask questions. Ask questions, be curious about people. Ask them how are you doing? How is work for you? What has worked for you? What are your preferences in terms of where to work, how to work? How should I communicate with you? What do you expect of me, as your leader? Of course, there's the flip side of what I expect of you if I'm your manager. It goes both ways. But to ask questions, be curious about the answers, and to really take into account those information that you collect helps you to adjust and shift as you go along. Revisit those questions on a regular basis. I think that's important. Asking questions. and being curious. - that would be my starting point.

Hardeep Matharu 
Yeah, I think it's funny because many people are used to being the one that answers questions. Their natural tendency is to wait for the question so that I get to be the one that answers but as you've said, it's a very different building block.

Marie-Laure Caille
We talk a lot about diversity today, and you can have a lot of diversity on paper. You can have people with different backgrounds, different way of thinking and different sensitivity, but if you don't have a way to bring that together and to allow people to trust and tap into their own resources, their own ability to think differently and to use that in the team context, then you're not leveraging diversity. So I think approaching your role as a leader from humble perspective - I don't have all the answers, but I have all these team and they have all this wonderful collective intelligence that I can tap into. This diversity of thinking and of seeing the world. Thanks to that, we can then find better solutions and smarter solutions. I think that's the way,

Eoin Higgins 
Marie-Laure, on that, when you're speaking about listening to people and having that curious mindset and inquiring with your team is what I heard. It raises for me what is one of the paradoxes of leadership is. Sometimes, to practice good leadership is to actually step back and follow. It's to know when to you take a step back and allow somebody else to lead. I often think some of the challenges there is because we think about the person as the leader, rather than leadership as a verb, leadership as something you do. Then, team members can do it at some time. It's not the responsibility of the leader to always be the leader and sometimes that's actually that nuanced. 

I’m curious how do you think about that then when you work with teams because at the end of the day, organisations do typically have hierarchical structures where people in formal leadership roles with certain amount of power and authority, and there is a level of accountability and responsibility for those people greater than others? How do you think about fostering that leadership as a verb, and allowing different team members to engage in leadership at different times?

Marie-Laure Caille
Yeah, that's an  interesting question. I think for a leader it's to really choose consciously. Okay, what is it that I can delegate in terms of responsibility, in terms of leadership of a project? What would be relevant for this particular person? So it's to have this ability to really step back and do a diagnostic in terms of where is this person in terms of development? What does this person need? As a stretch, even to find the right level of stretch, right? Not too much, not too little, just right, so that this person will feel engaged and motivated and have a sense of growth. I think that's really critical. Also, to give this person the leadership of a project. You can distribute this responsibility amongst the members. Of course, not all the time because if you stretch people all the time, they're going to be exhausted but it's to find those moments when, okay, that's what the person needs, that's good for the team that's good for the organisation, and to step back and do that. 

There's also the other side of it for team members to see their leaders differently. The leader is not the person who has all the answers because sometimes you say, oh, but that's your job, you're my manager, you should know, right? Well, no, not always, you know. I rely on you to co-design a solution to solve the problem together. It goes both ways. It's the leaders responsibility to change the dynamic, but also, the team members to take on more responsibility and to be the leader or lead a project from time to time, or for some aspect of the team's work, completely all the time. That's also possible.

Eoin Higgins 
Yeah, I think you touched on the fundamentally relational aspect of leadership. If I engage in leadership and nobody follows, am I really leading? Leadership happens when you have people who respond with followership, and it's about how you foster that with human-centred approach, as you said.

Marie-Laure Caille
I really like what we call the coaching approach to leadership and that really leverages the skills that we use and the techniques that we use as coaches, right. It benefits individuals, it benefits organisations. Actually, studies have shown that managers who have the best coaching skills have better business results. It's not an easy road because sometimes it takes more time to adopt this coaching approach. Not all the time, because it's not always the most appropriate approach to all the different projects or issues you might face but frequently. I think this benefits definitely everyone and the organisation

Hardeep Matharu 
It's funny because I think you've kind of read my mind. I was going to ask exactly about that - coaching and leadership. We hear it becoming more and more of an agenda item where people are really seeking out to develop those skills for leaders. I guess maybe that's something that you must be aware of too. What do you think about that?

Marie-Laure Caille
Definitely. It was part of programmes before but not so much. Now, I work on a lot of leadership programmes and with large companies and that's a module that's in all leadership programmes now - coaching approach, coaching skills. That's a requirement and I welcome that. Usually when I facilitate workshops or programmes, that's one of my favourite modules because I know it's going to change the way managers or leaders interact with other people. I've heard so many stories of how it has really helped shift the dynamic and help people on a day-to-day basis, to have a different type of conversation and help people in their team become more autonomous, more confident, and more self-driven. It really, as a proven impact. I've seen it and I've heard lots of stories about it. I feel strongly about it.

Hardeep Matharu 
Yeah, of course, and I think I can relate a lot to exactly what you just said. I think it opens up conversations that you otherwise wouldn't have been able to do. Personally, I think I'm a testament to that. I think I'm very different now compared to how I used to be, say four or five years ago. Of course, it's difficult for anyone to say but I think people who are listening that know me from then, I think they would agree. So certainly for me, it's been quite a life changer in that sense. So I can echo that. I think the question that also comes to mind then in that case is actually on your side, would you like to share a little bit of maybe some success stories, people you've worked with, where there's been really tangible, wonderful results, that might also be inspired by too?

Marie-Laure Caille
With individuals, there's quite a few and for me, it's always very touching. Recently, I met with a client in Europe, and we started working together a few years back. She called me and she's like, I'm doing really well with my job. I'm successful, and yet, I want something different. That's usually why people call me and seek The Human Factor's services on an individual's basis. We started looking at going back to her values. I start with that because I really want to anchor choices in people's value, what is really most important to them, and to define that will then help them make decisions that resonates with who they are. We started with a bit of a conversation around values criteria on what's important to her and how do you translate those criteria into a job location. 

Two years later, she's in a different place, different job and seems to be pretty content with where she is. So for me, that's very touching. With organisations and with teams, what I've heard is how those programmes and again, they're not a solution that will fix all problems, right, because it has a leadership programme has to be conceived in a broader perspective. But, I've have heard many times say, hey, we work differently now. We have meetings that are so much more effective, or we make decisions in a way that's more inclusive, that's faster and we make better decisions. When I hear those stories where people actually have better work days, better dynamics at work. I think for me, that's why I do what I do.

Hardeep Matharu 
Yeah, it's the really fundamental parts that you don't talk about. It's there, and it's something you feel. I thought of individuals, you might say me, but I guess not, it's okay. I'm kidding, kidding. I did want to touch on one other thing before I guess we start to sort of close up but you mentioned also change management. Of course change management is something that you do at The Human Factor, it's something that we on our side do as well. I'm curious about how the change management experience goes when you're working with clients and some of the things that are important to to kind of drive change. Again, it would be great to hear your perspective that.

Marie-Laure Caille
So we start with what prevents change. 

Hardeep Matharu 
Lots of things.

Marie-Laure Caille
There's lots of theories about change management and you know how important it is to have a vision, to have the need for change, to have this kind of drive to change, to have a clear why you're and again a clear purpose for change, but also to look at change at the individual level. What does that mean for people? Many change programmes or portions of change programmes don't work. If they don't work, it's not about processes or because the processes are not right. It's often because of the fact that people are resisting it right? Change that you don't choose? Well, people are often not going to embrace it. So looking at change at the individual level, looking at what it means for employees, looking at potential friction area where they might resist it, and then identify what the organisation can do to limit those frictions, to compensate those frictions. So that change becomes more acceptable, and hopefully, you know, people eventually embrace it. 

Hardeep Matharu 
In the work that we do, there’s a lot of what you mentioned. Obviously, it rings very true. The common pitfalls being I didn't ask for this and of course, it's a very real reason.

Marie-Laure Caille
We worked with clients who were moving offices within a short turnaround. It created a lot of friction. It's a big change and it was also conducted in parallel to a lot of changes internally, not just processes. There was also a shift in the culture of the company. So we really looked at what might the reaction be for this type of employees? How is it going to impact other types of employees? Looking at that, and then work at balancing those negative impacts on them,

Hardeep Matharu 
It's always great practice to try. Of course, sometimes you get tripped up and in the clients we work with, they may not foresee some blocks or resistance, but these types of things can come along and trip you up too. I suppose the question I have on the change management side of things is what are some sort of practices? Again, many listeners out there might be working in organisations that drive it internally. If they're doing it internally, it might be a different model in terms of how they adopt it. What are some of the sort of the better practices you can think of if there's an organisation listening, that goes, hey, we're about to start a change management process. Like, what are some of the things that you would recommend as starting points?

Marie-Laure Caille
Well, the starting point would be to have a clear communication around it, focusing on what's the urgency of it. You probably know the famous cultural model, the different stages and different phases around the stages. It recommends to have a sense of urgency because the beginning of a change programme requires so much energy. If you don't have this sense of urgency, it's quite difficult to kickstart and to progress. So yes, you can have this sense of urgency, to have a strong communication to really explain why it's so important to do that, and how people are going to benefit, how the organisation is going to benefit, or the customers, of course, are going to benefit from it. So to be really clear about your why and to communicate it again, and again and again. 

Leaders often think that I've said it a few times, that's enough. No, it needs to be repeated often and relayed throughout the organisation to make sure that people at the ground level know what it means for them. Often we have those big visions, those big changes, and they're design at the global or regional level. People on the ground at the country level might not know what it means to them. So why would they change? Why would they embrace the change programme when they don't really know what it means to them? So, how those big strategies or those big change programme translate to the country level what it means for people and what it means for the type of work that they do? I think it's important to  clarify that and often, it's not clarified enough. 

Hardeep Matharu 
Yeah, it's a real tricky balance. The communication one is an interesting piece because with the way we work now, there's so many platforms you can communicate on. To really capture the message, you probably have to try to use all of them and that requires like a lot of effort. Before, maybe it was a town hall that everyone attends. We do, and everyone gets the message. Now, if you didn't go to the town hall because you were dialling in or you missed the message so maybe you've got to have a internet message, maybe you've got to have an email, and then maybe other forms. All kinds of things. I think that becomes a harder task in some way but indeed, very important as well.

Marie-Laure Caille
And don't be afraid to repeat. I was actually reading something by Adam Grant right the other day, and he said when leaders start getting sick about what they're saying because they think they've been repeating the same message over and over again, it's only the beginning. It's when it's starting to stick, so yeah, it's worth repeating.

Hardeep Matharu
So the question that we asked for all our guests and of course, it's the title of our podcast. It’s about the fact that we really strive towards this better world of work as an organisation. So the question to you, Marie-Laure, what does a better world of work mean to you?

Marie-Laure Caille
Yes, it's linked to quite a few topics which we've discussed today. First, for me, it's a world where people have a strong sense of their life, of their purpose, whatever their why is. It can be a big why, it can be a smaller why, but to have a strong sense of that. I think it's also a world, a place where they feel supported and I mentioned challenged earlier, I think, yeah, both supported and challenged, so that they feel engaged and they have a sense of growth. I think it's important for people, it's good for the company, and it's good for individuals. It's also, I think, a world where people have time to honour other roles and responsibilities that they have in their lives. That's why I'm a strong supporter of hybrid work because I think that's an opportunity to achieve that. It's not easy and yet, when you start having the conversations around what works for you, what works for the organisation, and to revise and review and reconsider how you work, to design a place that's just works better for everyone, I think that's worth it. 

Hardeep Matharu 
Thank you, Marie-Laure. Yes. I know you've mentioned it before, but the challenge has to be the right level of challenge.  

Marie-Laure Caille
For managers, you know, it's not easy, right? How much stretch? It's not easy, but that's something they need to consider because that's important for their team members to to grow and to say, okay, hey, I'm proud of what I've achieved. I've been uncomfortable because I'm out of my comfort zone but yet I'm better than I was at my job than I was a few months ago and that's good, that's really good.

Hardeep Matharu 
Nice. Okay. Well, Marie-Laure, thank you so much for being our guest today and talking about really an interesting topic. And we're also one very close as you can imagine to my heart. I appreciate you making the time to be with us today.

Marie-Laure Caille
Thank you. Hardeep and thank you Eoin for the invitation. It was a pleasure.